Curse

FrAnt1c² · Sep 24, 2008, 02:12 AM // 02:12

I'm using most of the time a hybrid woh bar, something like this:

[patient spirit][word of healing][Shield of absorbtion][seed of life][protective spirit][cure hex][glyph of lesser energy][heal party]

When casting heal party allways use a 40/40 set as otherwise the casting will take too long imo.
You can change [heal party] for [aegis] or [ressurection chant] and [patient spirit] for [dwayna's kiss]...
If you are running 2 of these bars in your team consider [spirit bond] instead of [protective spirit] on one of em, 600hp minimum is required though...

JDRyder · Sep 24, 2008, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taisayacho

I KNOW I'll get eaten for this comment, but imo, if you need to pack the power party heals, HB + Heal Party seems like the better option.
/braces self for being eaten

woh is the best power heal in the game, and you dont really need a shit ton of party healing, if you spamming heal party, you'll need bip etc as well as GoLE, WoH+Aegis is way better.

Why? cause aegis will save your party from way more damage than Heal party heals for even with HB

prots > heals, end of thread.

if you still think HB is better than woh stop posting, your slowing down mankind in GW.

JoeKnowMo · Sep 24, 2008, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Trylo, I don't know how you manage with just 1 red-bar-goes-up skill, especially in HM. Waiting 5s in between heals is insanity to most of us, so I'm going to go with 2 heals on all the bars since that's the standard.

Let's compare skill slots taken.

HB
HB + GoLE + HP + PatSp + Dkiss = 5 slots taken by default, 3 open slots

WoH
WoH + PatSp/DKiss = 2 slots taken by default, 6 slots open

LoD
LoD + PatSp + DKiss = 3 slots taken by default, 5 slots open

WoH wins on open slots. HB is in last place by far.

Let's compare healing power

HB
Good single target heals. Great party healing.

WoH
Great single target heals. No party healing

LoD
OK single target heals. Good party healing.

HB wins when it comes to healing hands down.

However, HB has few open slots.

Assuming all bars take a big prot. HB can take 2, LoD can take 4, and WoH can take 5 of the following: Guardian/Aegis/Dismiss/Cure Hex/Shielding Hands/Selfless Spirit/Seed of Life/PvE-only skill/etc.

HB is not crap. It makes for the best healing power compared to other elites. But it leaves few open slots for doing other things.

Even if you offload a few skills (like Aegis, condi removal, and hex removal) onto heroes leaving you with extra slots, you can still use the extra space for a PvE-only skill (Necrosis/CoP/Great Dwarf Weapon/Air of Superiority/Summon Djinn/Ebon Assassin/etc.). And HB takes another hit here because it forces you to use /Ele as secondary which limits access to other good PvE-only skills.

In the end, it comes down to how much you're ok with the trade-off of open skill slots for extra healing. I'm not a fan of HB because I find I can be more effective with a greater number of open skill slots.

I Jonas I · Sep 24, 2008, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

WoH's conditional heal is a bit to conditional for me. With the average toon having a normal hp of 480, that toon would have be be below 100 health for the heal AND the conditional heal to kick in.

The additional heal for WoH happens if they are below 50% health, I don't even know what you are talking about

Quote:

Personally I like [Glimmer of Light] better than [Word of Healing]. For each time you could cast WoH, you can cast Glimmer 3 times. WoH (assuming 16 in Healing) COULD in theory give you a 244 (+df) point heal (under ideal conditions), Glimmer on the other hand, WILL give you 366 (+df) points of healing in the same time frame.

The point of monk elites is not seeing how many heals you can get off in a short amount of time (leave that for infuse), but instead to be very energy efficient for your heals. spamming glimmer every time someone needs a heal will quickly drain a monk's energy

Quote:

If you're going for a hybrid bar, I often use Glimmer, Patient, Cure Hex, and then for the prot side Mend Condition + other prots as applicable, and you may have room for some energy management skill(s).

bad skill bar is bad

Chthon · Sep 24, 2008, 03:28 AM // 03:28

I think Cathode and Joe have it just about right.

At the root of things, you've got a trade-off between an excellent party heal or one more skill slot for a prot.

Let's break down how that happens:

On a two-spot-heal bar, WoH chain casting alongside one other spot heal is roughly equivalent to chain casting 2 spot heals both buffed by HBoon. (If anything, HBoon can come out a little ahead with DKiss sometimes.) So, that's a wash. Set spot heals aside and focus on what else happens in this trade-off..

HBoon enables super-powered heal party, but takes an extra skillslot. What would you use another skillslot for? Probably a prot.

And there you have it.

So, what does that mean? Basically what Cathode and Joe both already said: HBoon is by no means a bad skill. It's preferable to WoH in situations where party healing is very valuable, and inferior to WoH when you'd rather do something other than party healing with that skillslot.

-Lotus- · Sep 24, 2008, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Divine favor and GOOD healing skills(WoH, Dkiss, Gift, Patsp, NOT Orison) push bars up more than enough. HB just makes bars fill all the way up, this is totally pointless.

Winterclaw · Sep 24, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by trylo

i would prefer an infuse from someone with HB.

otherwise i would have preferred to have an SoA on someone getting pummeled, and i could even pop out a Heal Party which is only 10e more than your combo and heals the party as well (this is a more conditional situation though).

Infuse wasn't on your skill list, thus you weren't carrying it. When compaing yours to tyla's, his is better. And yes, GolE + HP will give you a party wide heal, but you just sacrificed two slots on your skill bar to get it and if you use it more than twice every 30 seconds, you are going to be losing a lot of energy. Another thing to consider is that even with a 50% cast time, HP is still interruptable.

JDryder also makes a good point about aegis. In physical or mixed group mobs PvE and in PvP avoiding damage is going to be a lot better than healing. So going with your bar means you've dedicated 4 skills that give you an okay heal, a wasted elite, and two skills that are an underpowered pair in places like HM where mobs can easily hit a caster for 40-50 per and have IAS all the time.

Protection beats healing and focused powerhealing that's geared towards saving characters that are low on health beats the general kind.

Anon-e-mouse · Sep 24, 2008, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

The additional heal for WoH happens if they are below 50% health, I don't even know what you are talking about

Read the skill description again, WoH heals for 138.. then it heals for 106 *IF* the target is STILL below 50% health after the unconditional heal. Which for the average player means that they have to be below 100 health (average) before you cast WoH on them, for the conditional heal to work. Like I said a bit to conditional, and if your target is below 100 health, your're not doing something right.

Anon-e-mouse · Sep 24, 2008, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

@ anon-e-mouse: u do realize that using woh on a target >50% is still a bigger heal than glimmer, rite?
thats wut rocks bout woh...
its still one hell of a heal, even if the condition isnt met

And whilst you're waiting for it to recharge, I've used Glimmer another two times... so no not better.

Laylat · Sep 24, 2008, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

And whilst you're waiting for it to recharge, I've used Glimmer another two times... so no not better.

Aren't you also using three times the energy?

cataphract · Sep 24, 2008, 08:19 AM // 08:19

I wouldn't call HB a bad skill. The heals are great and allow me to play without devoting my full concentration to GW. Since I'm doing H/H most of the time, this really helps. Tahlkora as ZB prot and me as HB = easy game most of the time.

Biggest problem with HB was, and still is, Ursan. UB pugs took the very essence of monking out of the game and cause a dramatic increase of incompetent monks. Because of it's great healing power and halved casting times, too much use of HB literally dumbs you down. I know, I have walked in HB shoes pugging with Ursans a lot.

Today, when Ursan pugs are a part of GW history, HB lingers on some monks' bars. People refuse to alter their HB build, not to mention re-rolling to hybrid or prot. They consider HB godly when, basically, they can't adjust their play to non-halved casting times without HB. The same "GOGOGOGO! FASTER PUSSYCAT, KILL! KILL!" mentality of Ursan pugs is still present in a lot of monks today.

That said, I'll always grab HB when going H/H because of low effort requirement. WoH hybrid bar when I'm helping out guildies or pugs. Still, I don't drop GoLE because I like to spam PS all over the place. Besides, almost every guild team was 100% squishy and people deliberatly aggroing everything they can. So a lot of PS helps.

DarkGanni · Sep 24, 2008, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrAnt1c²

I'm using most of the time a hybrid woh bar, something like this:

[patient spirit][word of healing][Shield of absorbtion][seed of life][protective spirit][cure hex][glyph of lesser energy][heal party]

When casting heal party allways use a 40/40 set as otherwise the casting will take too long imo.
You can change [heal party] for [aegis] or [ressurection chant] and [patient spirit] for [dwayna's kiss]...
If you are running 2 of these bars in your team consider [spirit bond] instead of [protective spirit] on one of em, 600hp minimum is required though...

600hp is not required to trigger Spirit Bond.

On topic of WoH and HB: I Run LoD and WoH nowadays. As stated many times a full healer bar is not required.

Koning · Sep 24, 2008, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkGanni

600hp is not required to trigger Spirit Bond.

On topic of WoH and HB: I Run

WoH
Dwayna's kiss (many times I'm with an order spammer, so this is a very nice heal too, otherwise bring patient spirit).
Cure hex
Dismiss condition/remove hex (if FF necro)
SoA
Prot spirit/spirit bond
GoLe
Aegis

The party wide heals mostly on other characs (protective was kaolai) if they are even needed, and same goes for rez ofc.

HB is just very bad imo, and ye like said before if you use it for too few healing prayer skills its even worse. I also always laugh at people who use HB + orison (but that's mostly in PuG teams anyway). Why use 2 skill slots when you can do it better with one (WoH)?

Daenara · Sep 24, 2008, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

And whilst you're waiting for it to recharge, I've used Glimmer another two times... so no not better.

If you need to spam Glimmer that much, there's something wrong with the way that you're protting.

zelgadissan · Sep 24, 2008, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

Read the skill description again, WoH heals for 138.. then it heals for 106 *IF* the target is STILL below 50% health after the unconditional heal.

Wrong. If it was below 50%, you get both heals, end of story. Just because you don't see +138, +106, and +favor doesn't mean that's how it works.

I just tested this myself because I knew it was wrong - health of 540, waited until it was at 250 - which should have only triggered the 138 - then got a +200 heal. That pretty much negates the entire Glimmer argument.

Oh, and what Daenara said too.

Also, WoH >>>> HB

maxxfury · Sep 24, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

Wrong. If it was below 50%, you get both heals, end of story. Just because you don't see +138, +106, and +favor doesn't mean that's how it works.

I just tested this myself because I knew it was wrong - health of 540, waited until it was at 250 - which should have only triggered the 138 - then got a +200 heal. That pretty much negates the entire Glimmer argument.

Also, WoH >>>> HB

Truth. but i think a LOOONG time ago word used to not give you the conditional heal if the regular heal took you over 50%, or maybe it was the df took you over 50%.

Anyway NOW you get both heals if your under 50% when its cast on you no matter if the normal heal would have topped you over 50%.

Btw enjoying this thread

Good solid arguments for both sides for a change

Food for thought while im bored at work

Anon-e-mouse · Sep 24, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daenara

If you need to spam Glimmer that much, there's something wrong with the way that you're protting.

Not a matter of protting, it's having a skill ready to use *if* it's required.

FrAnt1c² · Sep 24, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkGanni

600hp is not required to trigger Spirit Bond.

On topic of WoH and HB: I Run LoD and WoH nowadays. As stated many times a full healer bar is not required.

It is if you are running max armor, and if you are already enchanted with ps... Or not?

Hugh Manatee · Sep 24, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

I like HB for heal party, and not much else. If I have a bip in the party, you can sit way in back and spam HP aaaaalllll damn day and the front line won't die ever. It might be boring, noob monking but damn if it isn't effective...

Every other scenario I like WoH, RC or BLight, occasionally LoD. Though recently I've found that with Air of Superiority, Selfless spirit and/or Divine Spirit, you can spam glimmer all day, and as many 5 cost prots you want basically for free. Though word might still be better....

Picuso · Sep 24, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrAnt1c²

It is if you are running max armor, and if you are already enchanted with ps... Or not?

SB will trigger before any damage reductions, as PS. In HM, you can have max armor, but you will take >60 damage often.

So, PS + SB = Damage Reduction and Healing